More Reader Feedback on Soul Sleep

The Bible is not very clear about what happens to people when they die. There is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Both were in places on the “other side” of their physical life and had entered eternity and aware of their surroundings. You can read the illustration for yourself in the Gospel of Luke chapter 16. The rich man was in torment and Lazarus was in peace in (on ? ) Abrahams Bosom. Abraham was a giant man of faith and evryone who heard Jesus knew that it was a place where faithful people would go.

I believe that when people die their souls enter a vestabule as it were awaiting the final judgement and entry into either Hell an etrnal place of torment or Heaven an eternal place of peace and rest. Hells gates have not been opened yet, nor the gates of heaven.

The place of torment where people await the final judgement is not a place of repentance nor is it a place that we can impact from this side of eternity; it is not purgetory.

There are different words that have been translated as Hell; but there will be a place of eternal torment. Lazarus is not there…yet.

Frank needs to read Ephesians 2:5,6which reads: “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”

We are already sitting whith Christ in heaven in God’s eyes, at least our soul is. Many Christians do not see this and lead a very non-victorious life.

Our souls are eternal, when we were given life we became a living soul. God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. Our soul is the prize of eternity; desired by heaven and hell.

Saved by grace ? Yes! Saved from a life of sin and heartache Yes! Seated with Christ in heavenly places? Absolutely! Living an overcomers life and led by the Holy Ghost? That is so exciting.

I have no problems with what you say.

Seated in heavenly places is a reference to a partaking of heavenly things. We are not in heaven yet.

We were cruxified with Christ. We were buried with Christ. If one believes these facts, why can’t they believe that we are quickened, raised and seated with Christ.
All that I have read talks about verse 5 and 6 talking about our being above the things of this world. Everything is in the past tense, meaning it has already been done.
Since this was originally about soul sleeping, what is your opinion on that subject.

I do not need to be right. I am perfectly content for some things to remain a mystery until Jesus comes and we are all taken to heaven.

People sleep because we need rest for our bodies. Our soul is eternal; it is already living in eternity, it will not go into a state of suspended animation and suddenly wake up. Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus they were aware of their surroundings they were awake in a holding place in eternity. God Bless

I am truly happy to read all about heaven, about what will happen when we die. For me, the important is that I know where I am on the way, namely to heaven. And there I will meet Jesus Christ face to face. Amen.
But keep up the discussion about heaven. This is good.
http://www.PrayerAndBibleCenter.com

This discussion is a perfect example of why non-believers are just that. There seems to be so much ambiguity on such important matters as death and souls and heaven. If the bible is the word of God, why is it so unclear. Wouldn’t it be perfectly written?

And what about all those who died before Christ, those who did not know of him and therefore could not possibly be of him? What happens to those poor folks?

I look forward to your responses and hope that we can have a dialogue.

Samuel -

Those are great questions! I’ll start by answering your second one:

Just like believers today look back in time to the cross and put their faith in Christ for salvation, those who looked forward in time to the cross and the coming Messiah, were also saved by faith:

Hebrews 11 talks about this “forward faith” of God’s people before the time of Christ.

Your first question requires a more in depth answer.

Belief in the Bible requires accepting its claims such as: “All Scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). Problems arise, however, because of man’s interpretations of the Bible. Also, there are some things that God meant to remain a mystery. And there is also the whole issue of faith. But I don’t think you expect me to be able to prove the Bible’s validity with these few comments.

Certainly there is reason for skepticism when you look at the history of Christianity and the many, many divisions over doctrine and what the Bible means. Christians do more damage to Christianity than atheists or skeptics could ever do. So, all I can say is this: If you genuinely want to know for sure whether or not the Bible is the Word of God, then I would simply challenge you to make an honest attempt at studying it for yourself, enough to answer the question in a satisfactory manner for yourself.

I think many people have forgeten the very words that God said our first parents that when you eat the forbiden tree. That we shall die and added that in the dust we shall return where we came from. It only the devil that advocated the we shall not die. I hope that if Jesus knew it very well and the story of the Rich man and Lazarus was just a parable to teach the jews who were oppresing the poor. Please The bible teaches that when we die we weight the ressurrection day . Until that day we don’t exist in this world nor in heaven except in mind of GOD

A friend said to me “I don’t believe in Heaven.” I replied,”Why not? Are you worried that if you die and there is no heaven that your neighbors in the cemetery will poke fun at you because you lived in faith?”
I like Frank’s comment: “I do not need to be right. I am perfectly content for some things to remain a mystery…”

Those who proclaim atheism today are already forgiven because they have served to wake up faith among the believers.

“In my humble opinion,” Roberta Sue

This topic, (state of the dead) was for years a great source of distress to me. The reason? So many different views being put forward, none offering a very satisfying defense in Scripture. Because I wanted to understand God’s perspective and Scripture’s definitive teaching about the state of the dead, I began a long period of intense prayer and Bible study on the matter. Bottom line, I have come to an understanding that (to me, at least) is not only logical and reasonable, but is also entirely consistent with the teaching of the Word of God. I would be happy to share my 16 page essay, “What Really Happens When You Die?” with anyone who is interested enough to request it. I will attach it as a Word document to an email reply to your request for it.

Email: 1deciple@charter.net

Arthur Bruce Robertson

I’ve had questions about this subject for a while the folks who disagree about soul sleep exepct me to beleive there point of view simply because they say so. there arguments are weak with weak passages mainly about when the Christ went down to chat with to souls in Hadyes, this points out only that heaven wasn’t yet open and hadyes was a holding place much like the instance of the rich and poor man the Christ said that one side was fire for the rich man and the poor man with abraham in a place we would call heaven, but still no clear eveadence of a heaven most people beleive in a place you still can’t prove is open for business but exists thats where God our Father is abides with The Christ and The Holy Spirit are. and the hell of eternal fire that is only mentioned the book of the Revelation that has a chain and a lock with a key is only excerised in the end times. If the soul dosn’t sleep and heaven nor hell are open then the soul has to go some where perhaps the paradise the Christ told the thief he wold be in that very day and one fact that can’t be disputed that there is one judgment one book of life all in the in the book of the revealation there is no judgment for the souls of man at the time of death, no saint Peter at the pearly gates these are traditions of man. I,ve searched the bible for evedance of heaven and hell that are open and ready to except the souls of men upon death and found no clear verses that show me such.but I found verses the show that the soul rests until the second coming of the Christ, instances totely ignored like when The Christ rose laserurus and little girl from the dead, remember our Lord said they were asleep and he just had to wake them up you think a already judged soul in Heaven could come back from death, no the soul was asleep just like Chrst said it was lasezurus wife even commented that his soul would rise on the last day she didn’t think he was in Heaven she thought he was asleep too, just like Christ said

I do not believe in soul but a christian friend of mine that does made a good point. When the thief died and Juses said “today-Paridise”. If he were to go directly to heaven to be with Christ how does one explain when Mary tried to touch Christ He forbid her”I have yet to go to my Father” This appears to say that Christ did not go directly to heven. Please help me sort this out. I would like to somehow prove this to my friend without any arguing and any deflation of the ego. I know that some people just will not give in no matter what you show them but at least I will have a solid rebuttle. We do this all the time and it is very interesting and educating for me so I don’t want to hurt his feelings. He was a 7th evnts for a while but now he refuses to go to any church for he believes this is just mans oppinion and jsut studies the bible with just him and his wife and says this is the only true way for the Holy Sprit will guide him.
frustrated
Bill Hogan

Ironically, NT Wright has just published a book entitled, Suprised by Hope..apparently he has put forth strongly his view that soul sleep is what the Bible teaches. I have not yet gotten the book, but we shall se.

Mike

I believe the Question about Jesus telling the criminal on the cross that he would be with him “today” in paradise is a good one. Jesus clearly sayes in John 20:17 (to Mary, on Sunday)that He had not yet returned to His Father. This seems to be a contadiction, but the original writters of the gospels did not use punctuation, it was added by translators where they though it should go. And by the simple placement of the comma in different places the entire meaning is changed; Luke 23:46 could read “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus could have simply been saying that he will be raised on the resurrection day (1 Corinthian 15:50-54) not that he would be with Him in heaven that day, since Jesus himself did not go to heaven that Friday evening, but rested in the grave, according to His own words. I think your friend is on to something in thinking that studying the bible for himself and not just believing others interpretaions is the only way to go. As long as one is truly studying the bible with an open mind and praying for understanding from God they are heading in the right direction, and will eventually find the church that truly follows the teachings of the Bible.

when jesus heard of lazarus death he said something to the effect of “his sickness is not unto death” then he told the apostles lazarus is asleep. the apostles did not get it so jesus finally said, ok guys lazarus is dead. first why would jesus trivialize a dead loved one by saying his “sickness” is not death? because jesus knows we sleep until the coming of christ again. see you saturday on the sabbath. god bless!!!

Here is what NT Wright supports, I obtained this quote from another site:

Wright definitely does not advocate soul sleep. He thinks that the intermediate state is some sort of restful, conscious existence in the presence of the Lord (hence the use of ‘paradise’ as a description which wouldn’t make much sense in terms of soul sleep), until the day of resurrection when we will be re-embodied.

To quote from Surprised by Hope: “all the Christian dead are in substantially the same state, that of restful happiness. Though this is sometimes described as ’sleep’, we shouldn’t take this to mean that it is a state of unconsciousness. Had Paul thought that, I very much doubt that he would have described life immediately after death as ‘being with Christ, which is far better’. Rather, ’sleep’ here means that the body is ‘asleep’ in the sense of ‘dead’, while the real person – however we want to describe him or her – continues.

… it is a state in which the dead are held firmly within the conscious love of God and the conscious presence of Jesus Christ, while they await that day. There is no reason why this state should not be called ‘heaven’, though we must note once more how interesting it is that the New Testament routinely doesn’t call it that, and uses the word ‘heaven’ in other ways.” pp.183-184

Explicitly, Wright states that “the Christian dead are conscious” (p. 185). This is from the section in the book on ‘Paradise’, pp. 183-187

Soul is a life giving force for our bodies. When the body is dead the soul no longer exists. In the future when Christ returns we will not revert to our old rotten bodies which were animated by soul but rather a new spiritual body which will be animated by the spirit of God in Christ in US. Soul is breath life; we will be beyond that at the return. The soul does not sleep for Christians; it is gone forever, supplanted by spirit. For the unsaved in the book of Revelation, their old bodies will be resurrected, seeing that they do not have a spiritual body, and their soul life will be restarted.

I have been confused because everyone has there different ways of interpreting the bible, but as christians we know that Jesus was sinless therefore he cannot lie. He told the man that was crucified next to him that he would in paradise with him (Jesus) that day. I don’t beleive christ would tell someone they will be in paradise with him if he or she would not have been able to witness it.

“There are different words that have been translated as Hell; but there will be a place of eternal torment. Lazarus is not there…yet.”

I think Frank meant the rich man. If I correctly understand what he’s saying.

As far as full consciousness and activity in heaven with Christ, I am fully convinced of it based on my own Bible study over many years. I (and all who belong to him) will be very active in worshiping Him, and at least as conscious as HE is. I am quite happy and thrilled and excited about it and looking forward to it! As Christ did and Paul was. Right on too about our present being there and overcoming NOW in Christ, crucified, buried, raised and seated with Him unto the fulness at our “consumation”. I believe there are MANY animals there as well.

I am also convinced from scripture that the Lake of Fire is a place prepared/created by God of eternal torment for Satan, the beast, and all who followed them. All whose names are not in the Book of Life (a record of those who have come to saving faith in Christ).

If you prefer to be unconscious while present with Christ, that’s ok. (But you might be having some exciting, very realistic dreams and be waking up a lot because of his awesome presence and glory.) ke

P.S. Keep going Mary — I think you’re right on.

Kroy –

Thanks. I appreciate the encouragement.

“…unto the fulness at our “consumation”.

and bodily resurrection.

While there are interesting arguments for both sides, the REAL point the needs to be made is, “What do you believe NOW, before you die?”

Since nobody knows what day they are goind to die, the answer to this question is far more important than what happens after you die. Because the answer to this question, will directly affect the next step after this life.

Whether you sleep, or you are resting, or you are dancing hand in hand with Jesus Himself, you really need to get your faith in order here in this life first! Or what happens next may be really bad.

Please consider this carefully.

S

I want to step by step break this down for everyone. One’s opinion should only reflect the truth read straight from the bible.

Let me begin this by starting with the verses that support this “soul sleep” theory as man calls it.

John 5: 28-30 (NIV)

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgement is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Here in red wording Jesus tells those who are listening how the dead will come forth from their graves both those we have been judged wicked and condemned to hell then those judged innocent and live on in heaven.

This obviously is a huge corner stone to support the “soul sleep” theory and who will argue with Jesus?

Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here is another scripture that backs up the soul sleep concept. Not only does it support John 5: 28-30 it says the same thing but words it in such a way people better understand.

John 3:13

Again the red wording which this time reads…

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven- the Son of Man.

With this scripture we realize the soul sleep theory is more then just a theory it is fact. It is unfortunate this scripture does run into conflict with another passage. I would like to go ahead and look at it together.

Luke 23:43

Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Now for some this may seem like an ah hah moment but let me reassure you it is not. Jesus was quite obviously a unique individual which is a gross under statement but he was Jesus. He could do anything and if he swelled up with compassion for this criminal on the cross then yes he can take him up once Jesus died then the criminal. To me this is an exception to the rule because let’s face it, Jesus can decide to take you with him if he so desires. This brings me to another “challenge verse”.

Luke 16: 19-31

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angles carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can andyone cross over from there to us. He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazaraus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them. “No, father Abraham, he said, “but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.” “He said to them, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

This rather large piece of scripture that stands on the “challenge side” is surprisingly simple enough to understand. At the time Jesus is teaching those around him and in Luke 16 you find the parable of the shred manager. Unfortunately those who do not support the “soul sleep” concept will find neither does this scripture. WHY!? you scream! Because Jesus is telling a story and not fact(s). He was teaching the concept of heaven and hell and what will come to those who live a life that promotes a worldy life and the one which promotes a life modeled after Jesus Christ.

Some of the scriptures supporting soul sleep and non supporting seem like pure nonsense. I’d give an example but I think the point is more then clear.

I would like to close with this

Regardless of the contradictions found in the bible or for those who are for or against he theory of soul sleep it is deadly important to remember this about the bible.

Jesus Christ came to us, taught, and died for you. Now that you have a fighting chance to make it into Heaven. Don’t blow it on the small stuff like worrying if soul sleep is not just a theory.

Wow – what a fascinating discussion, and great to see so many people with different interpretations and beliefs about the bible, maintaining an open and cordial discussion.

I have also wondered I wonder how the doctrine of ’soul sleep’ explains Jesus, on the cross, saying to the thief on the other cross, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43)?

My view on this is not that the placing of the comma is critical, or that we should look at the time issues in a particular way. The important thing was that the thief’s faith earned him forgiveness – wasn’t it???

Surely this potential ambiguity makes it pointless to apply human understanding of time / space to Christian life after death? There are SO many discussions around this one verse BUT:

It really does not matter what day the thief would be with Jesus in paradise. Either with or without Soul Sleep, the thief would not know the difference – and Jesus was, after all, speaking specifically to the thief.

The same could apply to any of us, as a Christian, you die – and then the next thing you are aware of is that you wake up to be judged. It isn’t as though you are conscious during ’soul sleep’.

As doctrine’s go, I reckon that any that place importance on ‘when’ something happens after death are imposing very limited and human understanding on things that we cannot, possibly, know anything about.

The same goes for ‘how’ a soul works. It is simply not important – what matters is that we have laid our lives at Jesus’ feet and surrendered, that he has made it possible for God to forgive those of us who believe in him, and that we have been given a place by his side.

It doesn’t mean such doctrines are wrong, and it doesn’t mean they are right – but it seems clear to me that in the context of the teachings of Christ, such doctrines are simply not relevant. We are to Love God completely and to love our neighbor’s as though they were ourself (Luke 10:27 and Matt 22:37-40). The rest of Jesus’ teachings and actions (and the 10 commandments) are surely fully encompassed in these two instructions. To me, they are examples of how to follow these two commandments.

I really do think the devil tosses these things in to keep Christians bickering and to keep non-Christians away. A devoted, committed believer and follower of Christ is exactly that – a devoted, committed follower of Christ, whether they be Seventh Day Adventists, Greek Orthodox, Baptist, Independent, Catholic or any other.

I have met truly surrendered, inspiring Christians from many denominations.

God loves all of us equally – even those who do not accept Jesus, even those who do not accept God. That includes the filthy, stoned bum we step over at the entrance to the subway.

Remember, ‘Love thy neighbor…” – Whenever we help those in need, we help Christ (Matt 25:31-45).

So, surely then, those of us who DO believe and DO accept Christ as Lord and Savior, should be helping those in need, not infighting about the exact process of getting to Heaven, or the body/soul connection formula, or whether Judas really betrayed Christ, or where the crucifixion occurred – and so on…

I would rather my non-believing friends found Jesus through a Church whose doctrines I do not agree with, than die not having found him at all.

When we face judgment, our doctrines will matter for nothing – all that will matter will be how we loved God and how we loved our neighbors…

I meant to add – I completely agree with Taylor’s last two paragraphs (25th July, I think)

Great and very informative discussion – thanks to everyone – we are blessed to be able to share like this

Conrad –

Great thoughts and a wonderful contribution to this discussion! I appreciate the spirit of your words.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Here Jesus is talking to His disciples and He knew they will be dead when He will return to receive them unto Him.

Where do you suppose we are now if we are dead and not with Jesus? These are the words of Jesus.

”
I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
.
”

Love God with everything in you and your neighbor like yourself. If you are in Jesus I will see you at the tree. The tree of live in heaven. Amen

What about Revelation Chapter 6 verse 9, the souls under the alter cried out with a loud voice , how much longer do they have to wait for justice and they was told to wait a little longer till others join them?

if your in heaven with god after you die,why would you need your body in the resurrection.read what paul wrote in 1st corinthians 15;51 or jehova in deuteronomy 31;16 or jesus himself in john 11;11 if lazarus was in heaven why whould jesus bring him back.

Jesus Himself said it best when he told Lazarus’ mother and the witnesses to his resurrection that “he is sleeping”, and one verse later, “he is dead”. I take Christ at His word when he proclaimed that “no man has ascended to the Father (in heaven), except He that was sent by the Father (from heaven). Remember – “the dead know nothing”, and in Hebrews chapter 11, those listed still “have not received the promises”. Your spirit returns to God the Father at death – the essence of who you are, your life’s experiences, etc….but you are NOT conscious, or “watching over people”. Christ will bring that spirit back with Him at the second coming, and it will be reunited with a resurrected body that is perfect. To say that we go to heaven in a conscious state when we die, or that we go to eternal torment and suffering is simply not biblical, and my Savior is NOT a liar!